???? Crypto Titans Roger Ver & Tone Vays Debate Bitcoin vs. Bitcoin Cash! (Coinsbank Cruise 2018)

I I feel like a lot of non-blockchain people want to enter this world they don't have the means to Or the way into it I'll answer it less than a minute and then I'll answer it Oh I At the moment, I think one of the challenges to get new people into Bitcoin is because a lot of people don't understand what the bitcoin is now because of companies like Bitcoincom They are trying to sell your fake Bitcoin like bcash or Bitcoin Cash- I'll do it for this debate So I think there's a lot of confusion also again people like Roger who were very instrumental in the early days and getting everyone onto Bitcoin and there was all this unity pre-2015 when Gavin Andresen got this crazy idea that the blocks can scale

Back then, everyone know what Bitcoin was Bitcoin 95 98 percent dominance Everyone was unified Hey, you gotta accept this currency its government resistant and censorship resistant That's great And right now you walk up to an average person in crypto, and he starts trying to sell you his ICO

He's gonna try and sell you his currency He's gonna try and sell you a fake Bitcoin So that makes it a lot harder If enough people use Cryptocurrencies, we have to make them useful as currencies, and not just useful as currencies, more useful than every other currency out there in the market which means fast, cheap, reliable uncensored payments for the entire world BCH has it, Bitcoin core, BTC, does not, and if you want actual Example of how Bitcoin cash is useful and more useful than other currencies around the world my favorite website to spend my Bitcoin cash is Purse

io if you don't know about Purseio, go and visit it today, you can save 30%- 3-0 per cent on every purchase on Amazon, by using Bitcoin Cash That means if there's a $50 microphone that you want to buy, if you buy in Bitcoin Cash it costs $35 30% off Amazon using Bitcoin cash and personal value is another fantastic example of one of these companies around the world that wanted to use crypto currencies as a currency They paid all of their employees in BTC since the earliest days of Bitcoin, and in December of last year, When the BTC core developers got what they wanted, and the fees became high, They were popping champagne celebrating businesses like purseio, bitcoincom, any many others around the world We're busy switching to Bitcoin cash because it works as a currency, And today all of Purse

io's employees are paid in Bitcoin cash Everybody at Bitcoincom is is paid in Bitcoin cash Anybody who wants to use a cryptocurrency as a currency is using Bitcoin cash, not BTC All right Questions, so I get the five minutes

Yes Yeah five minutes Okay, so Let me tell you guys a story how I got into Bitcoin, it was a few years after Roger I first heard about Bitcoin from Max Kaiser around 2011, and here's how I heard about Bitcoin WikiLeaks is about to go down because they can't afford their servers, and It was suggested that WikiLeaks should start accepting Bitcoin for donations That's how I first heard about it And that's what I realized how I realized, Wow, this is actually something useful because it was able to Provide a method of funding that was censorship resistant that the government would never let you use But it was able to do that

It was able to Move without you know censorship avoiding credit cards avoid PayPal that was a use case that stuck in my mind Sure, I didn't run out and spend a hundred thousand dollars buying Bitcoin at $1 like the way Roger did- he was able to do that I guess he jumped he jumped on it earlier I like the use case, but it wasn't enough to get me in What did get me into Bitcoin? It was the first quarter of 2013, When I saw the events of Cyprus When I watched people in Cyprus, and we're here in Europe We're not that far from Cyprus, in the Mediterranean, When people that had saved money all their life, they had over a hundred thousand euros in the bank and all of a sudden the government comes in and confiscates half of your money, about a hundred thousand euros, and all of a sudden, another use case stuck into my head

Oh my god, bitcoin is un-confiscatable If I hold my Bitcoin, the government cannot take it away Now I have two use cases I have the un-confiscatable use case and I had the censorship resistance use case then While at the time I was following Ron Paul and I was starting to become a gold-bug I kind of liked the idea But again working in finance reading enough of economics I was still 50/50, you know, I grew up

I did financial engineering in university, you know Look, it's hard for me to argue Against the central bank and here's why: we had fiat money and credit I understand that, you know, our money is depreciating but we've had the system for last 100 years How do I know that we would have the Internet today if it wasn't for the central bank system? I don't know I can't argue what didn't happen So there is an argument to be made whether we should be a hard money like gold or on a fiat system, but I But I did enjoy that one And recently, I know, Roger, you were talking to Jimmy about reading the Keynes book I didn't read Keynes book but the book that I read was 'The Bitcoin Standard', by Saifedean Ammous

Now, have you read that book? You really should It just came out very recently It's an amazing book, and he made the case why sound money and gold is so important Okay? Because it creates a saving space that, ugh, and this is why the world should b, and ugh should have been on a gold standard, and why the world can go to a Bitcoin standard Those are three primary reasons why Bitcoin exists UnconfiscatableCensorship resistant value transfer And the fact that it's sound money that will appreciate Okay? Now, it's great that Bitcoin is still pretty easy to use, and our core developers are making it a lot faster and a lot cheaper But, technologically, Bitcoin just can't scale on-chain, because if you scale it on chain, and if you scale it on-chain, with incompetent developers, we're all on this boat

We believe that the operator of this boat, The Captain, is confident At, ugh, oh, driving the ship around the Mediterranean I believe that competent people should be programming Bitcoin core code, and when people are incompetent those people ended up leaving by themselves, because they're no longer useful Or, one day believe that there's a fake Satoshi out there who's a real Satoshi, they need to be immediately removed for making dangerous changes Okay, now Bitcoin will scale off-chain, it will be a better payment mechanism

But if you want a really good payment mechanism today go use the Venezuelan peso Nobody wants it It's great for transactions The moment you get the Peso, you immediately go and buy something If you want just a name a traffic what is more than a payment method give it some time and it will scale So many these Supporters, they're confused

You can separate the store value from the monetary use case But it's ask yourself write it for people that are in Europe you're using euros as a store value From the US you using dollars If you're in Japan in xingyang The reason you use those currencies of the store value is because you can spend them anywhere If you weren't able to spend your rugs anywhere or spend dollars anywhere are Russian rubles anywhere You wouldn't use them as a store of value and we've seen on the BTC chain They have intentionally undermined the ability to use Bitcoin to pay for things, and if you undermine the ability used to pay for things, you've then undermined the usefulness as a store of value Those are two sides of the same coin if you destroy something's usefulness in commerce You destroy its usefulness to be used as a store of value as well And that's exactly what's happened on the BTC chain And he's talking about competence and people we should have people there competent The people driving to BTC bus development took it from nearly a hundred percent market share to all the way down to 35% market share, now it's back up to about 50% You would be fired in any other business if you took it from a hundred per cent market share to less than half- you would be fired instantly, And that's exactly what happened within the cryptocoin community More than 50% of the capital within the crypto coin ecosystem went to altcoins, that was then Firing the BTC developers and showing they don't have confidence in their roadmap because After so if you have a crypto currency that is fast, cheap, and reliable, or one that is slow, expensive, and unreliable like BTC, you don't have to be a genius, you don't have to have read the primary text on economics to figure out which one is more useful in commerce, which one is more useful to businesses, and which one has the ability to undermine government's control of the money supply It's the one that actually works as money

Bitcoin Cash Let's say you- I do want to say that, uh, Roger, you just referred to Bitcoin as a business, It's not a business (disagreement) You referred to Bitcoin core developers- You agreed that we can jump back and forth a little bit- (more disagreement) So, uh, bitcoin core developers can't be fired because they don't really work for anyone they work for themselves Bitcoin is decentralized protocol Anybody is welcome to program on it, right? first of all just because At the height got out of control and people Started loving crazy old points and I have to say you are probably responsible for that because I was the one that took a picture Of your presentation at Anarchapulco in 2016 where for the first time you on a big screen Shows which all coins you have that versified into so if I can jump in? We don't need the one we need that works really well for everyone all over the world To try and blame me on all points I've been big boys biggest cheerleader from day one and it's Tony Bennett the big part of the reason Bitcoin So popular around the world is today

Well, guess what? I did it the first time and I do it again with Bitcoin caps I Was a big point shooter from day one that I got into it which was a slightly dirty one I pick with you never changing never Suggesting another old coin whether it's a tall coin that I believe is a better big coin or not Or even if it had nothing to have to say chance to fly when people believe in alternate and I contains But believe it also change if you believe in multiple, whether they're proof of work points or multiple points Or whether if you believe that a split of Bitcoin is a viable alternative Then you do believe in the Fiat system of money because having a hundred all points Viable is like having not know a single heart money at all There has to be one the whole of both migrate to what currency to specialize the way we have only one Internet it totally just won't work Are you willing to switch to something other than BCC? I Have no reason to ECC is the most decentralized not only from its development It has the smartest people I believe it Are you willing to switch if there's a reason? If if my money is not a Bitcoin there would be in the S&P 500 So you're not willing to switch to a different cryptocurrency? No matter what absolutely not because I believe that Bitcoin because bitcoin is miles ahead in its Decentralization against any other alternative that a Bitcoin loses the sort of value property? No one will ever believe that another blocking will ever be better store a value because no matter how No matter what Can I prove again that you have that Bitcoin 50% of all Bitcoin is in the hands of the very few It is still a thousand times more decentralized at the very few hands that hold any other point include Bitcoin cash And correct me if I'm wrong you're saying that you would never switch to anything other than BTC did I get that right? as a decentralized Blockchain, I would never put my god I'll use it as a I'll use it as a transactional currency, but I will never use it as a teapot I'll use it like the Venezuelan Bulova, okay By the organizers, we are giving about four more questions, so I'm gonna jump in the middle and fucking Go ahead So I'll be writing on stage I'm wearing my Bitcoin cash shirt I'm doing every single thing I can promote Bitcoin cash because I think it's the cryptocurrency that has the ability to bring more economically to the entire world but if I see a different one that I think has a better chance than Bitcoin cash to bring economic dreams the world and underlying government's ability to control people's money I would gladly switch the cryptocurrency and start promoting that and some people can argue whether or not Bitcoin cash or BTC is the real Bitcoin Whatever your opinion on that is My opinion, is that the BCH coin? is the one that has the best chance of bringing more economic freedom to the world in the shortest amount of time and that's why I'm busy promoting it today and if there's another coin that you think has a better shot of that Hit this nail it I'll start to go to that point without you I think at the moment do coin cash is the best tool The world has at this very moment to bring more economic seem to learn That's why I'm here Thank you Just very quick look About a year ago about a year and a half ago

There was I What Goodwin Cash when? That was pretty much the fifth attempt too hard for Bitcoin into a bigger block Look, I'm sorry Roger that suppose she put in a one megabyte block limit at the time santosh I put a one bag of my block limit She kind of assumed that it would be simple to just make it bigger in the future The reality of the situation was that when the Bitcoin core developers did their research and they initially thought About going to a bigger block they realized that there is no way was owned to happen you can't force people to take their no and they knew that the community was going to split so they made the Say they made the smart decision Not to even try and what they had to do was find a better way to scale Not to not to mention that a bigger block is technologically dangerous now That was though though It was a four account first There was a Bitcoin classic, but then there was Bitcoin XT then there was big point unlimited when I got the bait and switch with sacred twist Oh Bender was a Bitcoin a DC came out and then eventually Bitcoin cash split following victim on a DC's row now When the split was happening, they had 80 or 90 percent of the mining power they had most of God Yii on their side they had most of the Business on their side and the users still what the users? Wanted a free coin that was not going to be controlled by the miners and the businesses That knows what you like Bitcoin lost BTC lost the market cap or everybody's busy building on their favorite all coins Because people want to put their own money and convince other people to buy it doesn't mean that bitcoin is movie So this point is competing in the market place against all coins and it gives fiat currency and if you stop and think for a moment look at it bitcoin had companies like Microsoft like speedy and Dell computer and they were on a roll giving every sort of business all across the planet accepting in using Bitcoin And that adoption came to a screeching halt when the blocks the people not only they come to a halt it reversed copies that previously were accepting Bitcoin accepting bitcoins Those companies accepting Bitcoin always bothered Expedia accepting Bitcoin Microsoft people using the quick bother the reason why As those companies don't give a shit about Bitcoin when you said those Responsible drug These are made to be used as currency You if the person you are sending your bitcoins you don't care about These personal Personally, I don't need to be you know, it was the last time you bought something with Bitcoin all the time What did you buy most recently? Whether it go I spend it all the time

I've got the Bible shoot myself according to people in Baikal So I spent $500 Mr Pickle in most recent round I play solitaire

I sell my big boy Birds I forgot my Bitcoin and we will not care about Bitcoin Ok, I will reply it now Hey, you know why bitcoin is losing the market cap war? It's because brick wood doesn't have a marketing department Look how many people are worried BCH pools around Yeah All the hats and glasses like this Yes, if we pay for it and become our supplier in issues Ok I've been arguing with you all the time

Look at that look Dad started right some time instant life for itself and had a lot of money to promote that we're not enter – oh boy, just as bad and I Do not like the government to know that I even have Bitcoin so I will never spend my fifth point Where my actual name is used in the transaction? So anytime someone is selling a Bitcoin here the washdown was wearing that I just put down I've worked out in Bitcoin if you're selling Bitcoin t-shirts I'll pay you a big one for it Oh sighs I'll only pay For physical products all people VPN services, I'll pay for other services, but if I put my name address Here's example practicing what you preach all these hats you see people and they were bought with Bitcoin cash The sunglasses were bought with big my gosh these pants I'm wearing we're bought on her starting with the Quintero Shay the socks and shoes Bitcoin cash and purse that I owe You actually You you have a store you believe in Bitcoin cap So when people pay you a Bitcoin cash, you're not immediately selling it on the open market Of course not because Everything everything in every country That's the goal Okay Calling it I will let you know Sound I'll let you start Well I was gonna say see you're putting yourself in a position of a business that respects cryptocurrency When you pay to a business that doesn't respect virtual currency That's not gonna do anything to your car at all other than drop the price don't respect cryptocurrency as a currency You think it's a crypto store value? That's the difference I Think that if you're gonna scale you have you cannot put the most? fundamental properties of it Reliable transactions are a fundamental property of the club if they are done in a dangerous way to Even give the people an idea that the uncompensated bility Censorship resistance are being threatened, you know see the Parthian confidence of your scaling Bob Do you know it said no one will never have that Bitcoin cash or even all coin transaction in commerce sensor? So Bitcoin caps because they have no competent developers haven't made any serious changes to their protocol Do you know anybody losing Bitcoin captions have the trans actually sensor BTC, okay

Well pull in the transactions for juncos of us BAM Audience Yesterday Vision and cryptocurrency, so I'm wondering if you can both tell me why I should believe in it having seen what I've just seen Absolutely, cool I have available to me to bring more economic freedom to the entire world whether it's Bitcoin cash or anything else I don't give twenty days as long as it works if it's useful I'm going to use it and that's why I'm here promoting Big Bite cash because it's the most useful Cryptocurrency for the entire world and I wish the BTC camp Good luck, but you're on the wrong economic path to bring more economics into world because a peer-to-peer Electronic store a value I don't see how it's gonna be that where is it very clear I'll appear to be a lycoming cash system buzzes So if you want more economics in the world That are available to you and use them to build that like freedom for everybody in the world if you want to Go ahead, I'm not gonna stop you but that's not interesting to me Okay? So again, I'm not sure what you are interested in But what are you interested in in a cryptocurrency as an investment or were you looking at cryptocurrency to use in your business, right? So if you are looking at the currency of something you're gonna hold for the longer term And use it when you have to or use it when you need to then you have to do a lot of research and decide where you gonna put your money because the only cryptocurrency that I have seen so far that is worthy of holding for more than a day is Because I believe holding on to that Bitcoin will you will preserve your values putting your Dollars into any other crypto You keep sure you can buy any crook the currency whether it's I can name a dozen others If you're just gonna apply it and immediately spend them gears But if you're actually gonna hold on to it You really want to buy the one that's actually going to be around in a few years The one that has mostly centralized the one has the smartest people Coding it in a decentralized way and the one that people voted for with their nose to stay decentralized Didn't answer the question Tell you what the Bible to sell so let's actually have a little fun

We will take four questions so both ways Of course But why you are only bringing down the club size not on three people who are buying toys On the block size and Because Within the person economy That the theories I read about in the books were true when it came to the origin of money I watched people start using tobacco top rounded seats and postage stains as Money in the prison who is the entire prison economy and I had the theoretical evidence from economics books And that's why that's the Bitcoin in 2011 because it had those fundamental characteristics that they may be useful as mine And that's why the destiny Bitcoin cafe Thank you See the lava does right? Thank you So I hope I hope Charlie sure I've done when he was in prison mackerel cans or use this money And I would honestly rather have natural as a store of value over Bitcoin cap, but to answer your question Answer your question, what are the reasons why not happen is because look at who was like Scaling who was fighting against the court developers Who was the big companies? Okay Someone like Roger has a lot of influence when he started buying all coins and shit coins a lot of people followed a company in my twenties they started they didn't Talk anymore They became a ship one company again coinbase Hey, all of these companies were all of a sudden that Brian Armstrong has more a theory of the ds3 point and the and these Were the companies that want separate waxed and they didn't boy just this point it was they were greedy They wanted to make more money and they wanted to feed all those all coins are absolutely useless All supporting credit accounts with the execution but more he recreated the creases the only choice I Am doing my best to ignore all all points including Bitcoin cash But in this environment that's still a little bit difficult to do eventually Alright and the last question this is gonna go to Tom's So first of all, thanks to both of you for contributing to the fruit stuff really big ups, but I mean The thing is I just hang back from the lightning kind of active early Steps of happening with the light never could really happening quickly now and I feel like Bitcoin the PC version it just needs some extra time and You know, I wish Really hard because we we start the company with this parasite of transactions a Lot of business models fail Because this is time between where the Lightning Network we some of the new faces are amazing Straight from the with without trusting the exchange we have to send a transaction and snap and water as a market taker Really quickly, but while keeping custodian of the private keys What's your take on the line about being out – in the future All right, so I am so far again I haven't I've been meaning to do a podcast getting a bunch of different litecoin developers for all different like what? Implementations I'm one nice two three-hour long stream to talk about it some more I'm not an expert in a lightning Network I know it was like about three or four months ago when Julie and I were talking about it on a YouTube channel And I looked at it and said hey Jenny do I have to create a lightning node in order to use lightly because that's crazy because I know how Difficult it is to solve a Bitcoin Blockchain you gotta connect it to your router directly

We got to change some settings You gotta open some chords It's not very clear so a little scared if the average user has to go through all that challenge to use the lightning Network that's going to be a Disaster, but that's not what it is We're gonna have wallets on our homes exactly the way we have our wallets now and that's gonna be your lightning No It's not the same note as a Bitcoin note and you can rock your transactions and it will scale The houses of transactions a second it will watch the design it should be quite a big sheet and at the end of the day the end of the blonde whenever Somebody feels like it today will settle now the reason why it's taking so long is because it needs to be done right it Messed up the underlying properties Is gonna be a trillion dollar market cap soon? It's not a toy It's not move fast and break things That might be great for your little website Move fast and break things either like YouTube youtubecom goes down, but you can't do that with their plan You gotta take your time and you got to get it right Thank You Roger I'm not served your name, but I want to thank information see Ross And that's why I'm so excited about cryptocurrencies being the tools that we use To say no to violent people that watching these violence against peaceful people in regards to your question put the Lightning Network I'm more than happy to use anything

That's useful And I look forward to the day in which the Lightning network is useful in cars and I will gladly use it So thank you for contributing a Little bit Minutes ago, that's fine It's a human rights movement if you think about the core values, so All about fear that decency guarantee point we give 100 million people one satochi each Because your argument is all based on adoption adoption for adoption adoption of the price why don't we Philanthropists and not evangelist in some places Kling calm we will give anyone anywhere the world some free Bitcoin cash right now today You see now One question, I'm sorry, I never ask questions more every Day in the company A little bit weird about that because that's not the Bitcoin that I know Why do you accept that people are going to look for a Bitcoin are going to end up a big way commonly the claim caches because And I did clear evidence and logic and reason why indication that's the case yesterday on the cruise Open that video will be on YouTube tomorrow It's the first time I've given that presentation publicly, please watch it and I'll check it out though It's over three years I'd love to have a conversation with you about that later Thank you all sorry after I'm just going out Today today you willing to billion dollars Respondent black But The point I stopped two years ago, you know what it was too important to lose another And I only give big way now to people that actually respected I know that's it God, I think that's it for me as well If there's a full-time I bump to go to shore and check how to be back

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